Guest Post By Mark’s Daily Apple: My Escape From Vegan Island
Every once in a while, I am alternately stunned and amused by what I see being promoted in the name of good health. I had one of those “stunningly amusing” episodes when I took an eight-day vacation with my family to an all-vegetarian health and adventure retreat in Costa Rica several months ago. We had joined a group of 125 headed by Dr. John McDougall, an accomplished and well-respected physician who uses a strict vegetarian/vegan lifestyle to address disease states in his patients and (ostensibly) to promote better health among the general population. I wasn’t too keen on attending, strict carnivore that I am, but I’m always up for an experiment of one and, moreover, I was convinced by my mostly-vegetarian wife and her vegan parents that our extended family would enjoy a nice tropical vacation together. And the food promised to be so yummy… so I made the leap with my wife, two kids, the in-laws and some cousins.
First off, I must say, I did have a very enjoyable time in Costa Rica with my family, rafting, diving, zip lining and hiking…but after what I witnessed during my stay, I can assure you that I have never been so certain that the Primal Blueprint way of eating – which I have embraced for over 30 years now - is the best way to achieve and maintain excellent health. Frankly, I was appalled at both the information being disseminated during this event and at what I saw being served at every meal in the name of “health food.”
I am an omnivore and always have been. Carrie, my wife, was a vegetarian for fifteen years until I convinced her about five years ago to starting adding fish to her diet to get more protein. She still considers herself, in the words of the Outback Steakhouse guy, a “semi-veg.” My wife’s parents have been strict vegans for nearly thirty years and are ardent followers of Dr. McDougall. McDougall’s own story involves having had a severe stroke at age 19 from which, at 59, he still limps. He became an MD and eventually realized that diet was an important part of the health equation. He’s a very likable and charming guy. I had a few superficial discussions with him, even attended a few of his nightly lectures. His heart is certainly in the right place, but I fear he is leading people down a wholly inappropriate dietary path. At the risk of oversimplifying, the basis of his program is that almost all starch is good, all fat is bad and meat of any kind is deadly. It is, in his words, a “starch-based” diet, high in grains and legumes.
The attendees were generally divided into two groups: those who were fairly new to the program - many of them had some serious weight to lose - and those who had been on the McDougall program for several years. Many of the latter group, I gathered, had come to McDougall originally with one or more chronic diseases and on multiple medications. Each evening, after the adventure activity of the day (all of which were pretty sedate), Dr. McDougall would deliver a lecture intended to inform the group of the evils of traditional medicine and big pharma - much of which I generally agree with - and to demonize beef, pork, chicken, fish, dairy of all kinds and most forms of soy. I got the general gist after the first evening. He’s not a fan of supplements either. But he does imply that when you eat vegetarian, you can have all you want…and therein lay the source of much amusement for me.
The lecture would adjourn and everyone would line up for the buffet line which would, at virtually every meal, include copious amounts of breads and rolls, rice, potatoes, pasta, beans, some anemic-looking steamed vegetables and a romaine-only lettuce salad. No dressings allowed. The only fat I could see was in the guacamole that served as a spread. The desert table had a variety of fruits and at least two choices of so-called “healthy” cakes. The drinks were generally overly sweetened fruit drinks.
Now I’m not one to judge. Okay, I am, but I usually keep my mouth shut – except herein. I watched at every meal as overweight, unhealthy people piled their plates with at least two pounds of bread, pasta, rice, potatoes, beans, desert cake, and a glass of fruit juice. Sometimes they went back for more. By my calculations these people were consuming 200 to 300 or more grams of (mostly simple) carbohydrates at each of three meals. There was no way these folks were going to lose fat on this trip. It was, in my view, a type 2 diabetes epidemic in-the-making.
In fending for myself, I focused mainly on the salads and the black beans mixed with a little rice. As you regular readers know, I don’t “do” breads, potatoes, pasta, desserts or fruit drinks. I think they are unhealthy. Go figure. I have to say, it sure got old after a day or two.
Of those who had already been on the McDougall program for years, I had the following general observation: they don’t look too healthy. People who subsist on grains and simple carbs at the expense of quality protein for any length of time tend to lose muscle mass, regardless of their exercise regimen. They are what we call “skinny fat“. Essentially, they have no lean tissue and yet they have surprisingly high body fat levels, despite their loose “skin and bones” appearance. Lean body mass is a major defining criterion of good health; and these folks were sorely lacking. Excess carbohydrate turns to fat pretty easily, but you can neither build nor preserve muscle with it. Herein lies the confusion for many folks: while glucose serves as short-term fuel for muscles, it does not build nor maintain them. One woman, a 62-year old triathlete who trains hours a day and competes almost every weekend authoritatively suggested that I was a fool to eat meat and that I should embrace the McDougall program as she had for 15 years. Problem was, she looked like hell. No muscle tone at all and, I suspect, a fairly high body fat for someone who fancied herself an athlete. It took all I had to keep from saying something that might have spoiled her trip!
As with any diet regimen, Dr. McDougall backs his theories up with studies. But that’s the biggest problem with the “science” of nutrition: anyone can find a study here or there that supports almost any premise. To wit: Fish is great because it’s a source of important Omega 3 fats, but fish is bad because it’s a source of toxic heavy metals, but fish is great because the heavy metals are not actually present at realistically dangerous levels, but fish is bad because the fish lobby was the one funding the study on relative safety, and on ad infinitum.
If there were a right answer, everyone would be doing it. I guess the best any of us can do is to align the “receptivity filters” in our brains with our current belief systems and create habits that reinforce those beliefs – and that, hopefully, result in healthy bodies and minds. Ultimately, I have chosen to believe that we were programmed to eat primarily small portions of meat and vegetables, with a little fruit thrown in occasionally. It works for me (53 years old, 5’10” 165 lbs and 8% body fat).
Problem is, if you have no understanding of biology or chemistry, you can easily fall for that old vegan argument that meat is bad (notwithstanding the fact that there has never, in the entire history of man, been a country, culture or race that subsisted entirely on vegetables without animal flesh of some kind). Many people do fall for it. They also fall for the old “protein leaches calcium” argument, completely ignoring the fact that bones require protein as well as weight bearing activity to promote bone density and prevent osteoporosis. Or that stress has a far greater impact on preventing absorption of calcium than excess protein in the diet. But here I am giving you my opinion again and it’s only based on studies that my filters have shown align with my own beliefs…
I was fascinated by what I saw to be the complete antithesis of a healthy diet being offered up as the healthiest way to eat. And by people willing to accept that they could eat all they want of this high-carb fare and regain their lost health in the process. Try as I might, I couldn’t avoid losing a few pounds of hard-fought muscle myself over the week. Luckily, I was able to regain homeostasis shortly after returning home. And ultimately, I was left with a confidence that following a Primal Blueprint path is exactly what humans were designed to do.
What are your thoughts on vegetarianism, carbohydrates, and protein?
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Jay on 19 May 2008 at 1:50 pm #
Mark;
As always a very informative article. I was a veg for 25 plus years, then found Starting Strength, CrossFit, Performance Menu, etc. Stopped training for Marathons and started “really” training. Meat came back into my diet last year, have not looked back. I buy local Grass Fed meats, enjoy Organ Meats, and now making Sausage.
Life is short, Eat More Meat, Do More Squats.
Jenjen on 19 May 2008 at 8:21 pm #
I have read some of what MacDougall has to say, and have to say that it just doesn’t make sense. Carbs are great, meat is evil, fat is bad, and eat all the starch you want. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. It’s exactly what poor people usually eat in most part of the world — and those poor people usually don’t live very long. It goes against most research about humans’ evolutionary diets, and I just find it hard to swallow (sorry for the pun). I get that he is afraid of meat and animal products, and fats. And somehow has decided that starches are our friends. Why is another question though. I was a vegetarian for many years, and gained a lot of weight, mostly from starches and sugars. I have PCOS (polycystic ovarian syndrome), which is linked to type II diabetes and heart disease, so I have studied all about sugar metabolism. His allegation that fat in the cells interferes with insulin has not been proven in any scientific journal that I know of.
Jo Jo Greenjo on 19 May 2008 at 11:27 pm #
Vacation sounds totally trailer park to me. 8 days in some vegetarian retreat? C’mon, I never met anyone who refused to eat any type of food who didn’t also have some serious mental health issues. 125 of these people must have been the real nightmare, not the bread and potatoes.
Colin Chambers on 20 May 2008 at 6:59 am #
This post really made me laugh. I only really respect ‘experts’ that can talk about their subject at a low level. What’s Macdougall’s explanation for how fat gets to be a significant constituent of cell walls. That humans stop funtioning properly if their fat levels go too low. I’ve heard of evidence that too many carbs hinder your immune response. I believe the research was on killer t cells but I can’t find it. any way I was trying a high carb at the time, for a few years in fact and had notice how I was ill so often. It wasn’t like me I rarely used to get ill. So I’ve paid close attention to this balance since and am back to where I used to be. I rarely get sick.
That’s not to say carbs are bad is it, I just agree that it’s pointless to reduce every problem down to a single nutrient. It’s normally a combination or nutrients in decent proportions. To make things easier our bodies are highly adapted to sorting out the wheat from the chaff themselves so why try to control them so much.
I’ve spent much more time learning about the basics of my body, what cells are made of and require for good health for example than I have with following all sorts of rigid diets. At least now I know that there’s lots we do know and lots we still don’t but I can make good judgements with what I know.
There we go. All said. This blog really inspires me to chat away. Thanks Mark, great article
Robbob on 20 May 2008 at 10:57 am #
Real quick. I was a vegetarian (piscatarian, Fish, milk, & eggs were all good to go) for 3 years and proved that just because you don’t eat meat that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re eating healthy. Mac & Cheese was a staple meal for me and I’d have it about 3 times a week. Add to that a 1/2 lb of pasta twice a week and I was really upping my carb intake.
Anyway, started doing Crossfit and after a couple of months I craved meat. Saw a dramatic change in muscle compositon after only two weeks of eating meat again and have been making gains since. I currently Zone and I don’t know my BF% but it’s signifcantly different from my vegetarian days.
Mark Sisson on 20 May 2008 at 3:02 pm #
The high carb/lowered immunity thing is big. It’s what I noticed most about reducing carbs - I never get sick anymore. Glucose is a POTENT immune suppressor in and of itself and in concert with the higher cortisol output that it stimulates as a response to the stress of high glucose.
As for being around 125 vegetarians, they were so docile from lack of testosterone, I was never in any danger
» Washington, DC, Northern Virginia Official Crossfit Affiliate - Group Personal Training on 20 May 2008 at 11:08 pm #
[...] Escape from Vegan Island [...]
Scott Kustes on 21 May 2008 at 9:37 am #
Mark, I notice the same thing…the higher my carbs go, the more often I’m sick. Even when the flu hit this year and knocked people out like flies, the worst I got was a day of feeling like crap, but not bad enough to keep me out of work. And love that last line…very clever.
Good stuff
Scott
Brian on 21 May 2008 at 10:57 am #
Wow, “pound for pound” a great article on the contrast between the vegan/”China Study” diet and Paleo.
I switched from a “Mediterranean” Diet (a lot of non-processed food, but a lot of bread) to a Paleo/Zone diet and have lost significant amounts of body fat and seen my CrossFit performance and overall health increase dramatically.
Thanks Mark.
Brian
Hans on 28 May 2008 at 4:48 pm #
There are a lot of bad/wacky diets out there and this seems to be one of them.
As mentioned above, just because you’re a vegetarian doesn’t mean you eat healthy. I haven’t eaten meat for the last five years (I just feel really crappy when I do) but eat a lot of fish and some dairy. I started with crossfit about a year ago and even though I don’t crave meat, I definitely need more protein. I find hemp protein to be excellent (it’s complete and easy to digest) and with the addition of rice, pea protein etc you can perform very well.
Brendan Brazier (vegan triathlete) has a good book (http://www.brendanbrazier.com). I’m not saying that you should become a vegan (different things work for different people) but he has done extensive research and there is a lot of interesting information that you can use regardless what your diet is.
PeaceCat on 19 Aug 2008 at 9:34 am #
I just posted this in another post, but felt it would be relevant here too:
Veganism was a logical choice for me personally because:
1- I used to suffer from IBS until I completely eliminated animal foods (this was the only change I made that eliminated IBS symptoms completely, I was already eating healthy whole foods for the most part).
2- Ethical reasons – mostly an objection to factory farming, treatment of animals and the rubbish they are fed (I don’t object so much to people eating animals that have been well cared for and fed their natural diet, or to eating hunted wild animals/fish, but I still probably wouldn’t choose to myself).
3- A natural preference for vegetables, wholegrains, tubers, legumes, nuts/seeds and fruit.
I’ve only had 3 problems which I attribute to being a vegan (and I’ve been a vegan for 10 years+).
1- Occasional problems with concentration and short term memory – however this has been remedied by including more nuts, seeds and especially ground flax seed (I think the problem had something to do with lack of omega 3s).
2- Sensitivity to cold – though not sure if this is due to being vegan or just me.
3- The need to supplement with vitamin B12 – though I don’t perceive a problem due to lack of it, but do take it as a safeguard.
Thinking about it, I have also noticed a tendancy to get “skinny-fat” as you call it if I get lazy and neglect the exercise, but as long as I get regular exercise this is kept under control (for me that’s some yoga & body weight exercises 1-2 times per week, daily walks and the very occasional class of weights, cardio or whatever - not exactly an athlete :D).
However, personally I’ve found the benefits I’ve experienced (the resolving some health issues, needing less sleep, higher energy levels & endurance to name a few) more than outweigh any negatives.
In terms of exercise, I’ve never perceived a lack of ability to build muscle (at least no more than the average woman I guess) and have high endurance for low to medium intensity activity (yoga, body weight exercises, aerobics, circuit training, hiking) and barely even sweat. I do find high intensity activity more challenging (e.g. running, lifting heavy weights) and have no idea if this is related to my diet or not, but it doesn’t bother me much as I’m not really into running and lifting heavy weights anyway
I’m not too keen on the McDougall version of veganism though due to the strict elimination of fats, I once tried eating “McDougall style” for a couple of weeks because I figured it wouldn’t be much different to my own wy of eating. However, I noticed that my skin got very dry and I felt excessively hungry, I found the excessive hunger intolerable, so went back to my normal way of eating (the moment I included some avocados, nuts, olive oil etc. back into my diet, the excessive hunger went). I think also avoiding nuts means eliminating a good protein source, which when you’re a vegan probably isn’t such a good idea. I agree that McDougall’s heart is in the right place, but think it’s a bit too extreme.