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	<title>Comments on: Guest Post By Mark&#8217;s Daily Apple: My Escape From Vegan Island</title>
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	<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/05/19/guest-post-by-marks-daily-apple-my-escape-from-vegan-island/</link>
	<description>Respect Your Food.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 21:29:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: PeaceCat</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/05/19/guest-post-by-marks-daily-apple-my-escape-from-vegan-island/#comment-107439</link>
		<dc:creator>PeaceCat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=766#comment-107439</guid>
		<description>I just posted this in another post, but felt it would be relevant here too:

Veganism was a logical choice for me personally because:

1-	I used to suffer from IBS until I completely eliminated animal foods (this was the only change I made that eliminated IBS symptoms completely, I was already eating healthy whole foods for the most part).
2-	Ethical reasons – mostly an objection to factory farming, treatment of animals and the rubbish they are fed (I don’t object so much to people eating animals that have been well cared for and fed their natural diet, or to eating hunted wild animals/fish, but I still probably wouldn’t choose to myself).
3-	A natural preference for vegetables, wholegrains, tubers, legumes, nuts/seeds and fruit.

I’ve only had 3 problems which I attribute to being a vegan (and I’ve been a vegan for 10 years+).

1- Occasional problems with concentration and short term memory – however this has been remedied by including more nuts, seeds and especially ground flax seed (I think the problem had something to do with lack of omega 3s).
2- Sensitivity to cold – though not sure if this is due to being vegan or just me.
3-  The need to supplement with vitamin B12 – though I don’t perceive a problem due to lack of it, but do take it as a safeguard.

Thinking about it, I have also noticed a tendancy to get "skinny-fat" as you call it if I get lazy and neglect the exercise, but as long as I get regular exercise this is kept under control (for me that's some yoga &#38; body weight exercises 1-2 times per week, daily walks and the very occasional class of weights, cardio or whatever - not exactly an athlete :D).

However, personally I’ve found the benefits I’ve experienced (the resolving some health issues, needing less sleep, higher energy levels &#38; endurance to name a few) more than outweigh any negatives.

In terms of exercise, I’ve never perceived a lack of ability to build muscle (at least no more than the average woman I guess) and have high endurance for low to medium intensity activity (yoga, body weight exercises, aerobics, circuit training, hiking) and barely even sweat.  I do find high intensity activity more challenging (e.g. running, lifting heavy weights) and have no idea if this is related to my diet or not, but it doesn’t bother me much as I’m not really into running and lifting heavy weights anyway :D

I'm not too keen on the McDougall version of veganism though due to the strict elimination of fats, I once tried eating "McDougall style" for a couple of weeks because I figured it wouldn't be much different to my own wy of eating.  However, I noticed that my skin got very dry and I felt excessively hungry, I found the excessive hunger intolerable, so went back to my normal way of eating (the moment I included some avocados, nuts, olive oil etc. back into my diet, the excessive hunger went).  I think also avoiding nuts means eliminating a good protein source, which when you're a vegan probably isn't such a good idea.  I agree that McDougall's heart is in the right place, but think it's a bit too extreme.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just posted this in another post, but felt it would be relevant here too:</p>
<p>Veganism was a logical choice for me personally because:</p>
<p>1-	I used to suffer from IBS until I completely eliminated animal foods (this was the only change I made that eliminated IBS symptoms completely, I was already eating healthy whole foods for the most part).<br />
2-	Ethical reasons – mostly an objection to factory farming, treatment of animals and the rubbish they are fed (I don’t object so much to people eating animals that have been well cared for and fed their natural diet, or to eating hunted wild animals/fish, but I still probably wouldn’t choose to myself).<br />
3-	A natural preference for vegetables, wholegrains, tubers, legumes, nuts/seeds and fruit.</p>
<p>I’ve only had 3 problems which I attribute to being a vegan (and I’ve been a vegan for 10 years+).</p>
<p>1- Occasional problems with concentration and short term memory – however this has been remedied by including more nuts, seeds and especially ground flax seed (I think the problem had something to do with lack of omega 3s).<br />
2- Sensitivity to cold – though not sure if this is due to being vegan or just me.<br />
3-  The need to supplement with vitamin B12 – though I don’t perceive a problem due to lack of it, but do take it as a safeguard.</p>
<p>Thinking about it, I have also noticed a tendancy to get &#8220;skinny-fat&#8221; as you call it if I get lazy and neglect the exercise, but as long as I get regular exercise this is kept under control (for me that&#8217;s some yoga &amp; body weight exercises 1-2 times per week, daily walks and the very occasional class of weights, cardio or whatever - not exactly an athlete :D).</p>
<p>However, personally I’ve found the benefits I’ve experienced (the resolving some health issues, needing less sleep, higher energy levels &amp; endurance to name a few) more than outweigh any negatives.</p>
<p>In terms of exercise, I’ve never perceived a lack of ability to build muscle (at least no more than the average woman I guess) and have high endurance for low to medium intensity activity (yoga, body weight exercises, aerobics, circuit training, hiking) and barely even sweat.  I do find high intensity activity more challenging (e.g. running, lifting heavy weights) and have no idea if this is related to my diet or not, but it doesn’t bother me much as I’m not really into running and lifting heavy weights anyway <img src='http://www.modernforager.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not too keen on the McDougall version of veganism though due to the strict elimination of fats, I once tried eating &#8220;McDougall style&#8221; for a couple of weeks because I figured it wouldn&#8217;t be much different to my own wy of eating.  However, I noticed that my skin got very dry and I felt excessively hungry, I found the excessive hunger intolerable, so went back to my normal way of eating (the moment I included some avocados, nuts, olive oil etc. back into my diet, the excessive hunger went).  I think also avoiding nuts means eliminating a good protein source, which when you&#8217;re a vegan probably isn&#8217;t such a good idea.  I agree that McDougall&#8217;s heart is in the right place, but think it&#8217;s a bit too extreme.</p>
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		<title>By: Hans</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/05/19/guest-post-by-marks-daily-apple-my-escape-from-vegan-island/#comment-23994</link>
		<dc:creator>Hans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 20:48:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=766#comment-23994</guid>
		<description>There are a lot of bad/wacky diets out there and this seems to be one of them.

As mentioned above, just because you're a vegetarian doesn't mean you eat healthy. I haven't eaten meat for the last five years (I just feel really crappy when I do) but eat a lot of fish and some dairy. I started with crossfit about a year ago and even though I don't crave meat, I definitely need more protein. I find hemp protein to be excellent (it's complete and easy to digest) and with the addition of rice, pea protein etc you can perform very well.

Brendan Brazier (vegan triathlete) has a good book (http://www.brendanbrazier.com). I'm not saying that you should become a vegan (different things work for different people) but he has done extensive research and there is a lot of interesting information that you can use regardless what your diet is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a lot of bad/wacky diets out there and this seems to be one of them.</p>
<p>As mentioned above, just because you&#8217;re a vegetarian doesn&#8217;t mean you eat healthy. I haven&#8217;t eaten meat for the last five years (I just feel really crappy when I do) but eat a lot of fish and some dairy. I started with crossfit about a year ago and even though I don&#8217;t crave meat, I definitely need more protein. I find hemp protein to be excellent (it&#8217;s complete and easy to digest) and with the addition of rice, pea protein etc you can perform very well.</p>
<p>Brendan Brazier (vegan triathlete) has a good book (http://www.brendanbrazier.com). I&#8217;m not saying that you should become a vegan (different things work for different people) but he has done extensive research and there is a lot of interesting information that you can use regardless what your diet is.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/05/19/guest-post-by-marks-daily-apple-my-escape-from-vegan-island/#comment-16292</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 14:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=766#comment-16292</guid>
		<description>Wow, "pound for pound" a great article on the contrast between the vegan/"China Study" diet and Paleo.

I switched from a "Mediterranean" Diet (a lot of non-processed food, but a lot of bread) to a Paleo/Zone diet and have lost significant amounts of body fat and seen my CrossFit performance and overall health increase dramatically.

Thanks Mark.

Brian</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, &#8220;pound for pound&#8221; a great article on the contrast between the vegan/&#8221;China Study&#8221; diet and Paleo.</p>
<p>I switched from a &#8220;Mediterranean&#8221; Diet (a lot of non-processed food, but a lot of bread) to a Paleo/Zone diet and have lost significant amounts of body fat and seen my CrossFit performance and overall health increase dramatically.</p>
<p>Thanks Mark.</p>
<p>Brian</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Kustes</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/05/19/guest-post-by-marks-daily-apple-my-escape-from-vegan-island/#comment-16219</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Kustes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 13:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=766#comment-16219</guid>
		<description>Mark, I notice the same thing...the higher my carbs go, the more often I'm sick.  Even when the flu hit this year and knocked people out like flies, the worst I got was a day of feeling like crap, but not bad enough to keep me out of work.  And love that last line...very clever.  

Good stuff
Scott</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, I notice the same thing&#8230;the higher my carbs go, the more often I&#8217;m sick.  Even when the flu hit this year and knocked people out like flies, the worst I got was a day of feeling like crap, but not bad enough to keep me out of work.  And love that last line&#8230;very clever.  </p>
<p>Good stuff<br />
Scott</p>
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		<title>By: &#187; Washington, DC, Northern Virginia Official Crossfit Affiliate - Group Personal Training</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/05/19/guest-post-by-marks-daily-apple-my-escape-from-vegan-island/#comment-15799</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; Washington, DC, Northern Virginia Official Crossfit Affiliate - Group Personal Training</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 03:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=766#comment-15799</guid>
		<description>[...] Escape from Vegan Island  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Escape from Vegan Island  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Sisson</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/05/19/guest-post-by-marks-daily-apple-my-escape-from-vegan-island/#comment-15341</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Sisson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 19:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=766#comment-15341</guid>
		<description>The high carb/lowered immunity thing is big. It's what I noticed most about reducing carbs - I never get sick anymore. Glucose is a POTENT immune suppressor in and of itself and in concert with the higher cortisol output that it stimulates as a response to the stress of high glucose.  

As for being around 125 vegetarians, they were so docile from lack of testosterone, I was never in any danger :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The high carb/lowered immunity thing is big. It&#8217;s what I noticed most about reducing carbs - I never get sick anymore. Glucose is a POTENT immune suppressor in and of itself and in concert with the higher cortisol output that it stimulates as a response to the stress of high glucose.  </p>
<p>As for being around 125 vegetarians, they were so docile from lack of testosterone, I was never in any danger <img src='http://www.modernforager.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Robbob</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/05/19/guest-post-by-marks-daily-apple-my-escape-from-vegan-island/#comment-15188</link>
		<dc:creator>Robbob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 14:57:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=766#comment-15188</guid>
		<description>Real quick. I was a vegetarian (piscatarian, Fish, milk, &#38; eggs were all good to go) for 3 years and proved that just because you don't eat meat that doesn't necessarily mean you're eating healthy. Mac &#38; Cheese was a staple meal for me and I'd have it about 3 times a week. Add to that a 1/2 lb of pasta twice a week and I was really upping my carb intake.
Anyway, started doing Crossfit and after a couple of months I craved meat. Saw a dramatic change in muscle compositon after only two weeks of eating meat again and have been making gains since. I currently Zone and I don't know my BF% but it's signifcantly different from my vegetarian days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Real quick. I was a vegetarian (piscatarian, Fish, milk, &amp; eggs were all good to go) for 3 years and proved that just because you don&#8217;t eat meat that doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean you&#8217;re eating healthy. Mac &amp; Cheese was a staple meal for me and I&#8217;d have it about 3 times a week. Add to that a 1/2 lb of pasta twice a week and I was really upping my carb intake.<br />
Anyway, started doing Crossfit and after a couple of months I craved meat. Saw a dramatic change in muscle compositon after only two weeks of eating meat again and have been making gains since. I currently Zone and I don&#8217;t know my BF% but it&#8217;s signifcantly different from my vegetarian days.</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Chambers</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/05/19/guest-post-by-marks-daily-apple-my-escape-from-vegan-island/#comment-15071</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Chambers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 10:59:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=766#comment-15071</guid>
		<description>This post really made me laugh. I only really respect 'experts' that can talk about their subject at a low level. What's Macdougall's explanation for how fat gets to be a significant constituent of cell walls. That humans stop funtioning properly if their fat levels go too low. I've heard of evidence that too many carbs hinder your immune response. I believe the research was on killer t cells but I can't find it. any way I was trying a high carb at the time, for a few years in fact and had notice how I was ill so often. It wasn't like me I rarely used to get ill. So I've paid close attention to this balance since and am back to where I used to be. I rarely get sick. 

That's not to say carbs are bad is it, I just agree that it's pointless to reduce every problem down to a single nutrient. It's normally a combination or nutrients in decent proportions. To make things easier our bodies are highly adapted to sorting out the wheat from the chaff themselves so why try to control them so much. 

I've spent much more time learning about the basics of my body, what cells are made of and require for good health for example than I have with following all sorts of rigid diets. At least now I know that there's lots we do know and lots we still don't but I can make good judgements with what I know. 

There we go. All said. This blog really inspires me to chat away. Thanks Mark, great article</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post really made me laugh. I only really respect &#8216;experts&#8217; that can talk about their subject at a low level. What&#8217;s Macdougall&#8217;s explanation for how fat gets to be a significant constituent of cell walls. That humans stop funtioning properly if their fat levels go too low. I&#8217;ve heard of evidence that too many carbs hinder your immune response. I believe the research was on killer t cells but I can&#8217;t find it. any way I was trying a high carb at the time, for a few years in fact and had notice how I was ill so often. It wasn&#8217;t like me I rarely used to get ill. So I&#8217;ve paid close attention to this balance since and am back to where I used to be. I rarely get sick. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s not to say carbs are bad is it, I just agree that it&#8217;s pointless to reduce every problem down to a single nutrient. It&#8217;s normally a combination or nutrients in decent proportions. To make things easier our bodies are highly adapted to sorting out the wheat from the chaff themselves so why try to control them so much. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve spent much more time learning about the basics of my body, what cells are made of and require for good health for example than I have with following all sorts of rigid diets. At least now I know that there&#8217;s lots we do know and lots we still don&#8217;t but I can make good judgements with what I know. </p>
<p>There we go. All said. This blog really inspires me to chat away. Thanks Mark, great article</p>
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		<title>By: Jo Jo Greenjo</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/05/19/guest-post-by-marks-daily-apple-my-escape-from-vegan-island/#comment-14884</link>
		<dc:creator>Jo Jo Greenjo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 03:27:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=766#comment-14884</guid>
		<description>Vacation sounds totally trailer park to me. 8 days in some vegetarian retreat? C'mon, I never met anyone who refused to eat any type of food who didn't also have some serious mental health issues.  125 of these people must have been the real nightmare, not the bread and potatoes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vacation sounds totally trailer park to me. 8 days in some vegetarian retreat? C&#8217;mon, I never met anyone who refused to eat any type of food who didn&#8217;t also have some serious mental health issues.  125 of these people must have been the real nightmare, not the bread and potatoes.</p>
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		<title>By: Jenjen</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/05/19/guest-post-by-marks-daily-apple-my-escape-from-vegan-island/#comment-14773</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenjen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 00:21:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=766#comment-14773</guid>
		<description>I have read some of what MacDougall has to say, and have to say that it just doesn't make sense. Carbs are great, meat is evil, fat is bad, and eat all the starch you want. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. It's exactly what poor people usually eat in most part of the world -- and those poor people usually don't live very long. It goes against most research about humans' evolutionary diets, and I just find it hard to swallow (sorry for the pun). I get that he is afraid of meat and animal products, and fats. And somehow has decided that starches are our friends. Why is another question though. I was a vegetarian for many years, and gained a lot of weight, mostly from starches and sugars. I have PCOS (polycystic ovarian syndrome), which is linked to type II diabetes and heart disease, so I have studied all about sugar metabolism. His allegation that fat in the cells interferes with insulin has not been proven in any scientific journal that I know of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have read some of what MacDougall has to say, and have to say that it just doesn&#8217;t make sense. Carbs are great, meat is evil, fat is bad, and eat all the starch you want. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. It&#8217;s exactly what poor people usually eat in most part of the world &#8212; and those poor people usually don&#8217;t live very long. It goes against most research about humans&#8217; evolutionary diets, and I just find it hard to swallow (sorry for the pun). I get that he is afraid of meat and animal products, and fats. And somehow has decided that starches are our friends. Why is another question though. I was a vegetarian for many years, and gained a lot of weight, mostly from starches and sugars. I have PCOS (polycystic ovarian syndrome), which is linked to type II diabetes and heart disease, so I have studied all about sugar metabolism. His allegation that fat in the cells interferes with insulin has not been proven in any scientific journal that I know of.</p>
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