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	<title>Comments on: What I&#8217;m Reading: Everything I Want To Do Is Illegal</title>
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	<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/04/01/what-im-reading-everything-i-want-to-do-is-illegal/</link>
	<description>Respect Your Food.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:46:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Scott Kustes</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/04/01/what-im-reading-everything-i-want-to-do-is-illegal/#comment-4713</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Kustes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:35:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=621#comment-4713</guid>
		<description>Nice discussion Terry and Anna...and thanks for keeping it civil.  I think you're both aiming down the right track...with Anna, I agree that there needs to be more consideration for public transportation from the tax money that we pay, rather than corporate welfare and government subsidies of commodities.  From Terry's side, I'm all about lower taxes, which means fewer social programs.  We could get by with much lower taxes if the people we "entrust" to spend our tax dollars would spend it prudently.  

And it's certainly true that freedom is in the eye of the beholder.  

Cheers
Scott</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice discussion Terry and Anna&#8230;and thanks for keeping it civil.  I think you&#8217;re both aiming down the right track&#8230;with Anna, I agree that there needs to be more consideration for public transportation from the tax money that we pay, rather than corporate welfare and government subsidies of commodities.  From Terry&#8217;s side, I&#8217;m all about lower taxes, which means fewer social programs.  We could get by with much lower taxes if the people we &#8220;entrust&#8221; to spend our tax dollars would spend it prudently.  </p>
<p>And it&#8217;s certainly true that freedom is in the eye of the beholder.  </p>
<p>Cheers<br />
Scott</p>
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		<title>By: Terry</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/04/01/what-im-reading-everything-i-want-to-do-is-illegal/#comment-4643</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 14:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=621#comment-4643</guid>
		<description>Anna Says: 
April 5th, 2008 at 11:44 am

"Freedom is in the eye of the beholder, I guess."

Well I start from the controlling principle that the individual is supreme (as did our founders). I then considerr whether a given law/public policy gives the individual more or less freedom (freedom being the God given natural state of man).  

From there it's quite simple. Any law that reduces my freedom, be it economically (confiscates my money so I have fewer economic choices), spiritually, physically, or any other way, is by definition bad for me &#38; society as a whole. 

The evidence of the correctness of this is manifest both from my personal exerience as well as in the macro sense [one need only compare &#38; contrast the success of highly controlled societies (Cuba, former Soviet Union) with  a relatively free society (USA)].</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anna Says:<br />
April 5th, 2008 at 11:44 am</p>
<p>&#8220;Freedom is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well I start from the controlling principle that the individual is supreme (as did our founders). I then considerr whether a given law/public policy gives the individual more or less freedom (freedom being the God given natural state of man).  </p>
<p>From there it&#8217;s quite simple. Any law that reduces my freedom, be it economically (confiscates my money so I have fewer economic choices), spiritually, physically, or any other way, is by definition bad for me &amp; society as a whole. </p>
<p>The evidence of the correctness of this is manifest both from my personal exerience as well as in the macro sense [one need only compare &amp; contrast the success of highly controlled societies (Cuba, former Soviet Union) with  a relatively free society (USA)].</p>
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		<title>By: Anna</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/04/01/what-im-reading-everything-i-want-to-do-is-illegal/#comment-4611</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 15:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=621#comment-4611</guid>
		<description>Terry said:
"The very essence of freedom is the ability (physically &#38; economically) to move from point A to point B when one so desires. This is one of the great keys to our countries great economic success (as well as our own personal happiness &#38; satisfaction)."

Well, I would argue that additionally, one of the "great keys" to to our country's "success" also involved killing off  and pushing out the native population and "transporting" ourselves onto their land, but that's another issue altogether. :-) 

"It's not your car, it's your freedom".  Interesting advertising phrase that has stuck in my mind for a long time, probably since before I even was a driver.  Yes and no.  I also call my car "my slave master".  It demands a lot of me and us.  

I live in So California now, but I grew up and went to college in the Northeast, then lived ten years in the  Southeast of the US.  In the past nearly 30 years (since age 18) I've also traveled to about 20 countries in Europe, North &#38; South America, and Austral-Asia, on my own, as a couple, and now as a family.    Next year we plan to go to Africa.  In other words, we get around, using both private and public transport.  I don't claim to be an expert on transportation or national policies or even US history, but my experience has taught me to put high value on publicly funded, well-designed transportation systems.  

Now living in So California for 12 years, I also know what it is like to be just about completely dependent on a personal automobile, because the public transport options here are minimal.   Relying on personal automobiles for transportation isn't always "freedom".  It can also be "slavery to a system of perceived personal freedom", especially in densely populated areas and suburban communities.

I was reminded of that this week when one of our cars was in the repair shop a few days.  My husband was able to take a bus to work the day he dropped it off for fixing, but he "needed" our other car for the remaining days.  The skimpy bus service we used to have no longer goes through our neighborhood so I was on my own for transportation.   Our suburban community doesn't even have a local taxi service.   I definitely didn't feel "free", even as I negotiated my way to do some grocery shopping for essentials with my bike and the nifty pannier shopping baskets I brought back from France, "sharing the road" with ridiculously large urban assault vehicles with one passenger each (how many kilocalories of energy to move one heavy vehicle and one person?).  And that's not even counting the "slavery"  to working to pay for the car and the maintenance.  

One way or another, if we want to get around by any other way other than walking, we have to find a way to do it with cooperation with others.   Even in the US, we don't get around by ourselves.  Single passenger-occupied cars are just the net result of our cooperation.  Our collective tax dollars already to go to support our system of "personal transport" and we're not doing so well with it.  No one could use a car completely on their own, without infrastructure, so it is an illusion that spending our collective tax funds on roads for cars is different than spending collective tax funds on mass transit (unless you want to pay tolls on every street and road).  If you want to argue about paying taxes at all, then it might mean going back to walking and being a slave to your horse and buggy (which is much like being a slave to a car) and paying the highway toll for roads developed by private enterprise.

Of all the "socialist" programs of the countries I have visited, the investment in public transport is probably the one I would like to see adopted more often here in the US.  The US feels like a third world country sometimes when I think about our transportation options.  When done well, mass transit really works to move people, both short and long distances.  I really appreciate the "freedom" to move around without a car.   We have stayed with friends in many places where one relatively basic car suffices for a family for out-of-town excursions and occasional shopping trips for bulky items because every member of the family can easily walk a few minutes to the train station and be whisked into the city to work or school in a matter of minutes, with no car to park, gas up, or creep through traffic.  Bikes can even go on buses or trains for further connections.  

Freedom is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terry said:<br />
&#8220;The very essence of freedom is the ability (physically &amp; economically) to move from point A to point B when one so desires. This is one of the great keys to our countries great economic success (as well as our own personal happiness &amp; satisfaction).&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, I would argue that additionally, one of the &#8220;great keys&#8221; to to our country&#8217;s &#8220;success&#8221; also involved killing off  and pushing out the native population and &#8220;transporting&#8221; ourselves onto their land, but that&#8217;s another issue altogether. <img src='http://www.modernforager.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>&#8220;It&#8217;s not your car, it&#8217;s your freedom&#8221;.  Interesting advertising phrase that has stuck in my mind for a long time, probably since before I even was a driver.  Yes and no.  I also call my car &#8220;my slave master&#8221;.  It demands a lot of me and us.  </p>
<p>I live in So California now, but I grew up and went to college in the Northeast, then lived ten years in the  Southeast of the US.  In the past nearly 30 years (since age 18) I&#8217;ve also traveled to about 20 countries in Europe, North &amp; South America, and Austral-Asia, on my own, as a couple, and now as a family.    Next year we plan to go to Africa.  In other words, we get around, using both private and public transport.  I don&#8217;t claim to be an expert on transportation or national policies or even US history, but my experience has taught me to put high value on publicly funded, well-designed transportation systems.  </p>
<p>Now living in So California for 12 years, I also know what it is like to be just about completely dependent on a personal automobile, because the public transport options here are minimal.   Relying on personal automobiles for transportation isn&#8217;t always &#8220;freedom&#8221;.  It can also be &#8220;slavery to a system of perceived personal freedom&#8221;, especially in densely populated areas and suburban communities.</p>
<p>I was reminded of that this week when one of our cars was in the repair shop a few days.  My husband was able to take a bus to work the day he dropped it off for fixing, but he &#8220;needed&#8221; our other car for the remaining days.  The skimpy bus service we used to have no longer goes through our neighborhood so I was on my own for transportation.   Our suburban community doesn&#8217;t even have a local taxi service.   I definitely didn&#8217;t feel &#8220;free&#8221;, even as I negotiated my way to do some grocery shopping for essentials with my bike and the nifty pannier shopping baskets I brought back from France, &#8220;sharing the road&#8221; with ridiculously large urban assault vehicles with one passenger each (how many kilocalories of energy to move one heavy vehicle and one person?).  And that&#8217;s not even counting the &#8220;slavery&#8221;  to working to pay for the car and the maintenance.  </p>
<p>One way or another, if we want to get around by any other way other than walking, we have to find a way to do it with cooperation with others.   Even in the US, we don&#8217;t get around by ourselves.  Single passenger-occupied cars are just the net result of our cooperation.  Our collective tax dollars already to go to support our system of &#8220;personal transport&#8221; and we&#8217;re not doing so well with it.  No one could use a car completely on their own, without infrastructure, so it is an illusion that spending our collective tax funds on roads for cars is different than spending collective tax funds on mass transit (unless you want to pay tolls on every street and road).  If you want to argue about paying taxes at all, then it might mean going back to walking and being a slave to your horse and buggy (which is much like being a slave to a car) and paying the highway toll for roads developed by private enterprise.</p>
<p>Of all the &#8220;socialist&#8221; programs of the countries I have visited, the investment in public transport is probably the one I would like to see adopted more often here in the US.  The US feels like a third world country sometimes when I think about our transportation options.  When done well, mass transit really works to move people, both short and long distances.  I really appreciate the &#8220;freedom&#8221; to move around without a car.   We have stayed with friends in many places where one relatively basic car suffices for a family for out-of-town excursions and occasional shopping trips for bulky items because every member of the family can easily walk a few minutes to the train station and be whisked into the city to work or school in a matter of minutes, with no car to park, gas up, or creep through traffic.  Bikes can even go on buses or trains for further connections.  </p>
<p>Freedom is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.</p>
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		<title>By: Terry</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/04/01/what-im-reading-everything-i-want-to-do-is-illegal/#comment-4594</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 03:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=621#comment-4594</guid>
		<description>Anna Says: 

April 4th, 2008 at 4:29 pm 
"Like food, a lot of the “cost” of the computer industry is not reflected in the cash register price. The constantly changing computer industry creates an ever increasing waste stream of obsolete equipment, old cds, old inkjet and laser printer cartidges, packaging, as well as an increased drain on energy consumption in the home and business.

I’d like to see the taxes on fuel raised substantially to fund better public transport,  If everyday folks in Europe can afford to pay about $80+ to fill the tank of a VW Golf-sized car, then everyday Americans probably can, too.


Anna

I agree about the roundabouts.

However your other points (higher fuel taxes, increased public transportation, &#38; $80 fill ups) are all seriously misguided.


Our country (the USA) was founded on individual liberty &#38; your ill advised prescriptions run contra to that liberty.   

The very essence of freedom is the ability (physically &#38; economically) to move  from point A to point B when one so desires. This is one of the great keys to our countries great economic success (as well as our own personal happiness &#38; satisfaction). 

If our society moves from personal to public transportation our physical movement is constrained &#38; restricted to the times &#38; destinations of the bureaucratically determined SCHEDULE. (The bus may not go to Grandma's house at 2:00PM Sunday) 

As to higher fuel taxes, they would only serve to confiscate hard earned $'s from the pockets  of the citizenry further (this time economically) restricting freedom. 

Freedom has served our country well, better in fact then any other societal blueprint in the history of mankind. When searching for prescriptions for societal ills, seek solutions that provide more, not less, individual freedom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anna Says: </p>
<p>April 4th, 2008 at 4:29 pm<br />
&#8220;Like food, a lot of the “cost” of the computer industry is not reflected in the cash register price. The constantly changing computer industry creates an ever increasing waste stream of obsolete equipment, old cds, old inkjet and laser printer cartidges, packaging, as well as an increased drain on energy consumption in the home and business.</p>
<p>I’d like to see the taxes on fuel raised substantially to fund better public transport,  If everyday folks in Europe can afford to pay about $80+ to fill the tank of a VW Golf-sized car, then everyday Americans probably can, too.</p>
<p>Anna</p>
<p>I agree about the roundabouts.</p>
<p>However your other points (higher fuel taxes, increased public transportation, &amp; $80 fill ups) are all seriously misguided.</p>
<p>Our country (the USA) was founded on individual liberty &amp; your ill advised prescriptions run contra to that liberty.   </p>
<p>The very essence of freedom is the ability (physically &amp; economically) to move  from point A to point B when one so desires. This is one of the great keys to our countries great economic success (as well as our own personal happiness &amp; satisfaction). </p>
<p>If our society moves from personal to public transportation our physical movement is constrained &amp; restricted to the times &amp; destinations of the bureaucratically determined SCHEDULE. (The bus may not go to Grandma&#8217;s house at 2:00PM Sunday) </p>
<p>As to higher fuel taxes, they would only serve to confiscate hard earned $&#8217;s from the pockets  of the citizenry further (this time economically) restricting freedom. </p>
<p>Freedom has served our country well, better in fact then any other societal blueprint in the history of mankind. When searching for prescriptions for societal ills, seek solutions that provide more, not less, individual freedom.</p>
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		<title>By: Anna</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/04/01/what-im-reading-everything-i-want-to-do-is-illegal/#comment-4588</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 20:29:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=621#comment-4588</guid>
		<description>Like food, a lot of the "cost" of the computer industry is not reflected in the cash register price.  The constantly changing computer industry creates an ever increasing waste stream of obsolete equipment, old cds, old inkjet and laser printer cartidges, packaging, as well as an increased drain on energy consumption in the home and business.

I'd like to see the taxes on fuel raised substantially to fund better public transport, better maintenance of the roads we have, conversion of fuel wasting 4-way stops and signal-controlled intersections to roundabouts, research into alternative transport, incentives for folks to choose less energy intensive transport, better planning for public transport in new neighborhoods, etc.   Right now American car users do not pay the real cost of operating a car for personal transport.   If everyday folks in Europe can afford to pay about $80+ to fill the tank of a VW Golf-sized car, then everyday Americans probably can, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like food, a lot of the &#8220;cost&#8221; of the computer industry is not reflected in the cash register price.  The constantly changing computer industry creates an ever increasing waste stream of obsolete equipment, old cds, old inkjet and laser printer cartidges, packaging, as well as an increased drain on energy consumption in the home and business.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to see the taxes on fuel raised substantially to fund better public transport, better maintenance of the roads we have, conversion of fuel wasting 4-way stops and signal-controlled intersections to roundabouts, research into alternative transport, incentives for folks to choose less energy intensive transport, better planning for public transport in new neighborhoods, etc.   Right now American car users do not pay the real cost of operating a car for personal transport.   If everyday folks in Europe can afford to pay about $80+ to fill the tank of a VW Golf-sized car, then everyday Americans probably can, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Terry</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/04/01/what-im-reading-everything-i-want-to-do-is-illegal/#comment-4545</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 20:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=621#comment-4545</guid>
		<description>This excess gov't contol &#38; regulation is the very reason our gasoline prices have risen so high. Instead of encouraging the development of greater supply (thus lowering the market price) gov't provides barriers to exploration, drilling &#38; refining. These barriers serve to drive up the price by artificially restricting growth in supply in the face of rapidly increasing demand. This provides a platform for ruthless politicians (who caused the problem in the first place)to demagogue the issue.

Compare &#38; contrast the recent history of retail prices in the computer industry where there are low barriers to production(rapidly increasing demand &#38; rapidly increasing supply) vs the oil &#38; gas industry (rapidly increasing demand &#38; government mandated static supply). The reason for the increase in oil &#38; gas prices becomes abundantly clear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This excess gov&#8217;t contol &amp; regulation is the very reason our gasoline prices have risen so high. Instead of encouraging the development of greater supply (thus lowering the market price) gov&#8217;t provides barriers to exploration, drilling &amp; refining. These barriers serve to drive up the price by artificially restricting growth in supply in the face of rapidly increasing demand. This provides a platform for ruthless politicians (who caused the problem in the first place)to demagogue the issue.</p>
<p>Compare &amp; contrast the recent history of retail prices in the computer industry where there are low barriers to production(rapidly increasing demand &amp; rapidly increasing supply) vs the oil &amp; gas industry (rapidly increasing demand &amp; government mandated static supply). The reason for the increase in oil &amp; gas prices becomes abundantly clear.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Kustes</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/04/01/what-im-reading-everything-i-want-to-do-is-illegal/#comment-4468</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Kustes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 12:24:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=621#comment-4468</guid>
		<description>Bob, JRF, Neal, right on.  You are exactly right that the regulations are set in favor of the companies.  

Jay, I read Holy Cows and Hog Heaven also.  Review coming up next week.  

Richard, thanks for the article.  That's a good distillation of the book right there for those without time to read it.

Cheers All
Scott</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob, JRF, Neal, right on.  You are exactly right that the regulations are set in favor of the companies.  </p>
<p>Jay, I read Holy Cows and Hog Heaven also.  Review coming up next week.  </p>
<p>Richard, thanks for the article.  That&#8217;s a good distillation of the book right there for those without time to read it.</p>
<p>Cheers All<br />
Scott</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Nikoley</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/04/01/what-im-reading-everything-i-want-to-do-is-illegal/#comment-4457</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Nikoley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 19:05:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=621#comment-4457</guid>
		<description>Here's an article by Salatin that summarizes much of the book:

http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/reprints/Salatin_Sept03.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s an article by Salatin that summarizes much of the book:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/reprints/Salatin_Sept03.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/reprints/Salatin_Sept03.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Anna</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/04/01/what-im-reading-everything-i-want-to-do-is-illegal/#comment-4454</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 17:25:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=621#comment-4454</guid>
		<description>Glad to see another hail of praise for this book.  I agree totally.  I think many folks are becoming clued in to important food issues, but even so, they rarely get an "insiders" view from the small producer's side.    They still often view alternative food sources through a "grocery store lens".  Salatin provides an another perspective in a way that even citified, agriculturally-uninformed types who call soil "dirt" can understand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad to see another hail of praise for this book.  I agree totally.  I think many folks are becoming clued in to important food issues, but even so, they rarely get an &#8220;insiders&#8221; view from the small producer&#8217;s side.    They still often view alternative food sources through a &#8220;grocery store lens&#8221;.  Salatin provides an another perspective in a way that even citified, agriculturally-uninformed types who call soil &#8220;dirt&#8221; can understand.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/04/01/what-im-reading-everything-i-want-to-do-is-illegal/#comment-4452</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 16:57:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.modernforager.com/blog/?p=621#comment-4452</guid>
		<description>Hey Scott;
Reading Joel's Hog Heaven/Holy Cow, which was given to me by Moses Miller, an Amish farmer that went to visit Joel's farm last year.  He is now raising GF Beef, offering Raw Milk, Cheese, Butter and great eggs.

Consider in the future plugging Joel's Open House in July.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Scott;<br />
Reading Joel&#8217;s Hog Heaven/Holy Cow, which was given to me by Moses Miller, an Amish farmer that went to visit Joel&#8217;s farm last year.  He is now raising GF Beef, offering Raw Milk, Cheese, Butter and great eggs.</p>
<p>Consider in the future plugging Joel&#8217;s Open House in July.</p>
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